Mountain Flowers

Mountain Flowers

Saturday, November 25, 2017

What Not to Do in Court or at Hearings and Trial

1. Don't roll your eyes, or make faces or start talking out of turn. If you are on the stand as a witness, answer the question keeping in mind the process your attorney explained to you beforehand. Blurting out harmful things can ruin a case. 
2. Don't  keep referring to your child as “my” son or “my” daughter. It usually takes two to make a child, and possibly one to wreck the child.
3. Do not hide embarrassing or foolish acts that the other side will use against you, whether it's on Facebook, Internet, or spouse's friends know already..tell attorney beforehand, just in case..

4. Don’t bring your entire extended family and ten of your closest friends to your divorce hearing. This is not a circus!  (Circuses are fading since animal activists want no animals to perform, not even in movies or rodeos!)
5. Don’t wear inappropriate clothing such as see-thru blouses, short skirts,nightclub wear, low cut blouse or shirt, sandals or flip flops, Ugg boots, beachwear, dresses that belong at a party, big over the top jewelry, super heavy eye makeup or glitter, neon colors, super spiked party heels, bra straps showing through shirt or tank tops, super ratted hair that makes you look like TV girls, pink, green or blue hair, or rainbow hair (dyed or woven in), ripped jeans,or weirdo outfits that anyone knows is not kosher for courtrooms! Conservative clothing/colors are safe. If in doubt ask your attorney.  It's safer to look like a conservative Mom from the 1950's if need be. Just don't wear the 1950's costume or Judge will think you are on drugs.
  NO, NO, NO!!!!
NO, NO, NO...!!!

6. Do not make up crap that never happened or that you never told your attorney and expect your attorney to defend it?  E.V.E.R. Tell your attorney ahead of time!!
7. Don’t show hostility or open anger at opposing counsel. Ignore him or her; if necessary, write small note to your own attorney if it's a lie you're mad about. Opposing counsel already knows you hate him or her.
8. Don’t have your cell phone "ON". Ever!
9. In a child custody/or visitation issue , don’t keep talking about “your” needs and “your” desires. You will appear overly selfish and controlling. Even if you are selfish and controlling, you don't have to tell others!
10. Don’t tell long stories, or mention long incidents that are not at issue. If you have such a long issue, attorney must know ahead of time to gauge how long trial will take.
11. Preferably, do not wear colors that are known colors for certain gangs in your area. Ask your friends if you do not know what this means. We tend to see this issue in the juvenile courts but not always.
PS-- even if you don't HAVE an attorney, all of these above will apply. If you have some common sense and are not on drugs which are mind altering, and you are not on disability, most people can follow the above advice.
If all else fails, at least read what this guy makes sense and it might just bring you down to earth...  Attorney herein actually thinks that it would help people in general --if they thought long enough to try it out.  Social media can be damaging to children. That has already been proven.

Friday, November 3, 2017

Former Client on National Geographic+ Current Client..Singer Jack Russell

Jack Russell is the original singer of the band Great White (80's metal) and is now the singer of his band, Jack Russell's Great White...due to the lawsuit settlement, Jack took the Jack Russell's Great White name for his band, and the other band is named Great White.  The very sad fire that happened in 2003 in Rhode Island took a horrible toll on Jack's band, the audience, and the relatives and friends that were all there.  A memorial setting has now been erected where the nightclub used to be.

Unfortunately, some people who don't understand the truth of how things work legally, feel that Jack is responsible for the fire; but Jack is the singer? Do we really believe that if any band was in any venue (even a huge stadium) and that something went wrong, we would blame the SINGER(s)??

That's pure nonsense.

Legal fact patterns require understanding the law. The official fire report that was published indicated negligence with the the club owners and the band's manager--not anyone else. A fire suppression system was not in place (but should have been) and the foam used in the building was also not legal due to its flammability. How would a singer know any of this?

 He/or she as a "singer"  would not know, and would never be expected to know that. Which is why Jack Russell was not charged with a crime.   Why didn't the local fire inspector know anything about the foam?  These types of questions indicate, and the fire report proves, the exits and safety routes were improper also, and that people were blocked from trying to get out? Essentially the flammability level of the foam was so high that it only took about four seconds to start igniting. No members of the band were found to be at fault legally.

The manager (who is not a member of the band) and the club owners were found liable, and after it was all said and done, according to online research, many corporations (Home depot, Anheuser Busch,etc) donated MILLIONS to the victims/families. Estimates seem to indicate it was over $120 million years ago.   No one talks about this, but research does have its points. Nevertheless,  Rhode Island Survivors and victims' relatives have now been offered a total of nearly $175 million from the governments and a variety of companies sued over the fire [this was noted in 2008.]

Had this happened in California, attorney believes the government local fire inspectors would not be immune and a tort claim could be filed. Municipal immunity and governmental tort immunity is a complicated subject which arises when individuals want to sue a governmental entity. Surprisingly, there are quite a few situations in animal law cases involving governmental immunity. This link explains 42 USC 1983 claims  

YES, this is about constitutional law......

As of September 2008, at least $115 million in settlement agreements had been paid, or offered, to the victims or their families by various defendants:
  • In September 2008, The Jack Russell Tour Group Inc. offered $1 million in a settlement to survivors and victim's relatives,[32] the maximum allowed under the band's insurance plan.[33]
  • Club owners Jeffrey and Michael Derderian have offered to settle for $813,000,[34] which is to be covered by their insurance plan due to the pair having bankruptcy protection from lawsuits.[34]
  • The State of Rhode Island and the town of West Warwick agreed to pay $10 million as settlement.[35]
  • Sealed Air Corporation agreed to pay $25 million as settlement. Sealed Air made soundproofing foam installed in the club.[36]
  • In February 2008, Providence television station WPRI-TV made an out-of-court settlement of $30 million as a result of the claim that their video journalist was said to be obstructing escape and not sufficiently helping people exit.[37]
  • In March 2008, JBL Speakers settled out of court for $815,000. JBL was accused of using flammable foam inside their speakers. The company denied any wrongdoing.[38]
  • Anheuser-Busch has offered $5 million.[39] McLaughlin & Moran, Anheuser-Busch's distributor, has offered $16 million.[39]
  • Home Depot and Polar Industries, Inc. (a Connecticut-based insulation company), made a settlement offer of $5 million.[40]
  • Providence radio station WHJY-FM promoted the show, which was emcee'd by its DJ, Mike "The Doctor" Gonsalves (who was one of the casualties that night). Clear Channel Broadcasting, WHYJ's parent company, paid a settlement of $22 million in February 2008.[41]
There are other named defendants who have not yet made a settlement offer, including American Foam Corporation, who sold the insulation to the Station Nightclub.

Here is one of the videos from National Geographic showing attorney's  former family law client working to pull burls out. Al works locally and also travels to pull in different areas. A good burl
can be worth many thousands. Usually the burls Al pulls end up on high end vehicles,
vessels, and planes. High end veneer is pricey and highly coveted in industries catering
to the rich and famous, or just people wanting high end furniture.

Tuesday, October 31, 2017

Hand Forged Gift Given to Attorney--Hammer Time !!

It's really true, attorney received a gift by a well-known blacksmith!!   In appreciation  for attorney's help, over the holiday attorney got a really cool new tool for her toolbox!!

The Hammer Man

You’ll never look at hammers the same way again after seeing Brent Bailey make them the old-fashioned way.

In a recent issue of Tools of the Trade Jeff Kolle wrote a story about Brent Bailey, a blacksmith who claims to have made close to 17,000 hammers at his forge in Orland, California. The videos below show Bailey in action.
The first was shot at his forge in Orland, and shows how the hole (eye) for the handle is made. He could have used a power hammer to drive the slitting chisel through the piece of steel that will become the head but instead he does it by hand.  (video showing the handwork process)                                   

Monday, October 30, 2017

Has the Other Parent Stolen Your Kids?

The Parentage Act (2017 draft below)

If you are a recent arrival in this state, or if you never established jurisdiction properly, or if your partner has attempted to establish jurisdiction improperly and never notified you, or any combination of these factors (including being state residents but never having been married)-- then you will likely need to file a Parentage action to establish jurisdiction for your case involving your children.
and the Parental Kidnapping Prevention Act work together to help ensure parents don't run off with the used to be that parents could get away with this, but these days, it's harder to do.

If you are just arriving in California, or have just moved from California to another state, the same law will apply to the case, in tandem with the state law (of whichever state you went to...)

Attorney has had recently, four Parentage Act cases, with 3 of them being from other states, and one still here but the parent with custody moved to another state. These cases can be more difficult to do because sometimes attorney is faced with facts from another state making decisions that don't seem too well grounded.

  Also, attorney is seeing cases where multiple cases are filed in different states by family members who don't have custody, and then this makes it more expensive (even if they really have no grounds...)

Also if the parent that has custody of the child or children keeps moving around and doesn't update the District Attorney re the whereabouts of the other parent, and the DA doesn't adequately notify the noncustodial parent, we can see a big problem with support falling behind.

Attorney has successfully worked on two cases recently where the other parent wisked the kid away to another state and in another case, to another county. Fast action must be taken upon realization that you have NO marriage/NO court order--you need to file ASAP. In some cases a domestic order is proper if there has been violence--waiting too long will hinder your rights.
If you need help in Butte County, you can also contact the Child Abduction Unit in Oroville, CA.

And If you have such a case and need help, contact attorney C. Chan today! 530.359.8810

Saturday, October 28, 2017

Charged with a Domestic Violence Restraining Order?

Being charged with a domestic violence restraining order is a serious issue since it's possible that the District Attorney will file charges against you. Even if the DA doesn't file charges against you, once a DV restraining order is filed, it is nearly impossible to have it removed and it may affect your ability to gain employment in some cases. Attorney is aware that false DV orders are filed, but all of them must be defended properly; unfortunately, not all attorneys are able to defend such cases.

To see some of the videos attorney believes are relevant to the defense of the charges, see (which has information about attorney herein and attorney Craig Henderson from Chico), plus the videos are right on the first page.  Some good points are made by each attorney on each video-- these are attorneys we do not know personally, but the content is good.

Remember, under FC 3044 a person who has had a DV restraining order filed against him or her, and the restraining order is upheld within the previous five years--there is a rebuttable presumption that an award of  (a) sole or joint physical- OR- (b) legal custody of a child,  is detrimental to the best interest of the child....therefore,  that would mean that the party affected might not even get shared custody. The presumption may only be rebutted by a preponderance of the evidence. (superiority in weight of the evidence that is more convincing, and will be more than 50% of  all the evidence)

If you have had a DV restraining order filed against you, and you wish to gain custody or visitation of children, you have an uphill battle against you. Attorney recommends that you find an attorney who knows both family law and criminal law since the defense of the DV really does depend on how badly your case proceeds (if you are criminally charged and arrested) and how the district Attorney feels about prosecuting your case.

Attorney herein does practice family law and criminal law, and has done cases at all of the courthouses shown on the right side column of this site [plus other ones not shown]... so feel free to contact if you need help.

Your Child Wants to Live with the Other Parent?

It's common to find that children will want to live with the "other" parent in many cases.

Image result for photos child custody fight

Sometimes it's for valid reasons, but not always.  The California code does address this and even states an age, apparently believing that by that age the child has enough reasoning power to make the decision; but the child's decision is subject to the court confirming it. Meaning, it may not happen.

Parental alienation is fairly common in cases, often (in attorney's experience) it's the mother doing it, but not always. Sometimes a parent with narcissistic tendencies may tend to do this, see for information on this problem generally. The afflicted parent will continue to push the fact that the child must stay with him/her even when lacking a factual basis. Attorney has seen many cases where the parents actually share custody but fight about everything anyway. Usually that is due to a build up of resentment in the relationship for varying reasons, and the parents never (and I mean never) resolve their own issues.  Instead, they carry the resentment forward, which is not helpful.

California Family Code Section 3042 (a)-(d) states:

      (a) If a child is of sufficient age and capacity to reason so as to form an intelligent preference as to custody or visitation, the court shall consider, and give due weight to, the wishes of the child in making an order granting or modifying custody or visitation

(b) In addition to the requirements of subdivision (b) of Section 765 of the Evidence Code, the court shall control the examination of a child witness so as to protect the best interests of the child.
(c) If the child is 14 years of age or older and wishes to address the court regarding custody or visitation, the child shall be permitted to do so, unless the court determines that doing so is not in the child’s best interests. In that case, the court shall state
its reasons for that finding on the record.
(d) Nothing in this section shall be interpreted to prevent a child who is less than 14 years of age from addressing the court regarding custody or visitation, if the court determines that is appropriate pursuant to the child’s best interests
When a Court evaluates a child's choice regarding custody and visitation, the Court must listen to a child age 14 and older, UNLESS the Court determines it is not in the child's best interest do so? [When child is less than 14, the Court must first decide whether it is in the child's best interest to listen to the child..]
Courts can certainly listen to the preference of the 14+yr old child, but isn't required to cut off visitation even if the child requests it. Also, non sincere efforts by parents to do so are often seen, but not necessarily granted. Using mediation, or appointment of a custody evaluator or investigator may be required if issues of parental alienation or emotional or psychological abuse are present.  Other professionals may recommend differently if the parties have made a lifetime of being in court; in the worst cases, the children can even be placed in neither parent's care.
Custody is one of the most highly fought-over issues in many divorce cases. They can also be the most expensive. Attorney herein has found that many of the hard-fought custody cases really should have never been needed.
But parents sometimes find that emotional scars to one parent will cause that parent to become the "enemy" and then the battle doesn't stop. Unless the actual facts support harm to the child, it is often the attorney that has the better common sense argument who will win out. As for the child, he/she might get lucky.

Friday, October 27, 2017

Experience in Litigation Takes Years + Results That Count

Experience in handling difficult cases can only be judged by those who have actually done such cases, and preferably, won those cases. Losing can teach us as well (although every case is not a winning case to start with) - and one may find that certain tactics don't work, but just drive up the cost of litigation to start with. 

If  so, TRUST ME, WE GET IT!!  There's two sides to every story, if not more!!
  *Before anyone gets insulted,  we are quite aware that much of family law involves FIGHTING and we mean fighting verbally, mentally, and physically!!  That's why many attorneys hate family law cases.  It's too emotional, too draining, too much drama,etc......

But the problem could be--maybe YOUR other former half--WANTS to drive up your litigation expenses so you will give up?!!

Actually, due to some attorneys who will do needless actions, this is not that uncommon.

At about $4.00 a minute, it doesn't make sense to do actions that aren't useful, BUT it happens a lot from what we have observed over the years. Custody issues tend to be the worst because any private evaluators or experts are very expensive. Very.

It makes sense that an attorney who is strategy minded, cost mindful, and fairly assertive-- can make better headway than spending time on useless things that will have no impact on the case, even if it drives up the costs for the other party.  Attorney herein is not a clerk or a clerk typist, although we do have to type. 

 An attorney understands that the legal argument can't be left out?  The best argument is not buried in 5 pages of paper. Some of the attorneys with wonderful skills will bury their arguments such that it can't be found unless one searches---that should never happen.  Arguments should not be buried. That's a wonderful way to never get your point across.

If you need an attorney who can make your points very obvious, leap from the page, and do all the talking for you in a straightforward, simple to understand format, then attorney may be a good match for your case. Plus you get the added bonus of having an attorney that is an experienced closer (as in closing sales, closing cases) which has helped attorney win cases both in civil, criminal, and family law.

Thursday, October 5, 2017

Pay Less but get More? It's Possible..and Here's Why!! No Guts, No glory..

Most family law attorneys may like helping people, but essentially most of them like to help themselves stay at a financial level to which they have become accustomed. That's self most attorneys bill strictly by the hour and may charge for every nickel, dime and eveny penny. Every postage stamp, every copy or xerox, every single email, you name it.

If you have been billed by an attorney before, with a blow by blow accounting of every single minute spent, then you understand why attorneys account for every single MINUTE. It's because a minute may amount to over $4.00, so not charging for 5 minutes may mean "losing" $20 bucks!! God forbid the attorney should be losing $20bucks!

Attorney herein does charge by the hour, but does not do the nickel and dime method. It's just too much work to count it all with a timer... attorney already knows that she will work harder than nearly any other attorney for several reasons...for starters, attorney has a social work degree. NOT a business law degree. Attorney did not go to school to become rich. Make a living yes. Rich, no.

Then we have the justice factor. Attorney does not like losing, and especially when the case clearly indicates the client should not be losing, and especially when it's about kids. Or bad legal rulings. Or maybe judge just hates your client.  Or maybe client hates judge.  Doesn't matter--in every case there is a way that is better than other ways. My job is to determine that strategy and I do it. It won't matter how long it takes if it's possible.  I am always shocked at the methods used by some attorneys who seem to care less about what they are doing (meaning they appear to take a losing proposition and stick with it..or they will be highly egregious in their approach...)...but that's fine with me.  They may keep billing their clients even if their clients lose.

That's very common from what I have seen locally.  In fact we even heard attorneys talking outside that they would just keep the case going to raise the billing hours!!  How sad is that?

Attorney herein believes that family law is handled very differently than other areas of law. Yes, attorney knows about other areas of law (criminal, civil, animal, bankruptcy,etc.) and has done cases in those areas. Family law and animal law have the high/low emotional toll on people, but attorney is used to this. Just about every non imaginable thing out there, attorney has probably already seen it.  Not a joke.

 So attorney isn't surprised by very much, unless it's another attorney trying to denigrate this attorney inappropriately.  At that point, better watch out, because attorney herein doesn't put up with BS. Period.  Just calling it like it is.  If you need down to earth real help, and you want someone who is not afraid to call a spade a spade, then I might be a good match for your case.  I don't play games, I won't tolerate BS, and I can't stand fake people.  Let's just say I win most of the time.

*If you have a case that cannot be won (in my opinion) I would suggest you seek other opinions, but in most cases, I am right. In part this is because I have been out in the field a long time, and also because I have been to every court in San Diego county--North County, East County, downtown, and Chula Vista... [juvenile court excepted] and have handled cases against very large entities such as Chase Bank, PGE, the State of CA, the American Kennel Club, and government entities.

Atty C. Chan Agrees DV Issue Defense..Some Fake Cases do Get Filed!



Attorney is well versed in how trumped up cases are filed....
Unfortunately, these DV TROs used to be routinely granted without
adequate proof. A DV TRO can be issued even if you are not
criminally charged, and that DV TRO if not contested, can
ruin your employment chances in the future. It will also
ruin your chances of being the custodial parent. 


                                         Video below is a San Diego attorney who is correct 
                                     concerning DV criminal DV TROs and criminal charges





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Tuesday, October 3, 2017

Not Happy with Your Case and How Your Attorney Handled it?

It does happen unfortunately.  Not all attorneys have good or great skills with clients. We have seen that over the years, disgruntled clients are sometimes unhappy with legal services. Although to some degree, certain clients are not easy to work with, that is to be expected in this type of work.

Some clients have more information than others; some do not want to educate themselves, and others are actually a dream to work with. A divorce, custody, move away, UCCJEA issues, claimed abuse, domestic violence, alleged sexual harm, criminal actions, alcohol problems, drug problems, mental afflictions, all of these and more are readily seen in family law.  Which is why many attorneys would NEVER want to practice family law.                   

But since attorney herein has a social welfare degree, and has long been empathetic to those with issues, addressing such issues is commonplace. Attorney has many years of experience with some of the worst situations, so much so, that attorney is asked for permission by reporters to publicize a family law case (and having all names and places changed....) the flip side of these cases is that they were remedied, even though there was wrongdoing.  Therefore, an improvement was made which did not exist before, and that improvement could be a life saving action for kids involved.

Because of the emotional distress often seen, attorney often recommends a key book, Emotional Clearing,  authored by a former psychotherapist, John Ruskan.  Key to solving emotional issues is the concept of resistance, surrender and "what is."  If these concepts are foreign to you, you are not alone.  But using the concepts as outlined in the book, clients have found it works, and attorney has heard back from male clients particularly, that they achieved success by following the author's suggestions.

So if you are having issues with emotional roadblocks, attorney highly recommends you obtain the book mentioned above.  [It was seen on sites such as Amazon at very low pricing (used in good condition) and is well worth the low price.]

Tuesday, September 12, 2017

Did You Post Too Much Online + Now Are Paying for It?

Find out how all that social media you are using might not be helping you?

The Internet can be a great tool, but being careful with your data, photos and social media is common sense.  We have won cases because of social media, so if you have way too much overage in that
department, we suggest you read the link above to protect your privacy.

If it's too late for that, then call attorney for damage control.  Especially if it's within a family law case, this type of conduct (if it involves wrongdoing which may affect kids) can be the data that sinks you.

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Tuesday, September 5, 2017

Attorney Helps Bring Kids Back Out of Hiding!!

This case is not attorney's case, but it is quite involved, and the affected parent was struggling with
multiple counties (and orders), CPS, errant claims by other parent (all unjustified) and attorney herein got first hand account of the facts by the actual client/her attorney.  While the errant parent (in yet a different county)-- is likely guilty of contempt--- that process takes a long time, and the offending party is appointed an attorney if he/she cannot afford one, since contempt is quasi-criminal.

Attorney herein was present when judge told offending party the rules for being appointed an attorney.  In meantime, attorney herein helped the client's attorney to devise a concise but correct summary of what was required to get an order for RETURN of the children with police assistance.

The order requested was to get return of the kids ASAP with police assist. That order was granted, PLUS, judge also ordered that the offending party have NO VISITATION!!  Not even supervised!!!

....on 9/7/17, the Father produced the kids back to Butte County-- as predicted by attorney herein.

As we know, an errant parent can listen to others who may steer the parent incorrectly.  However, when the offending parent goes out on a limb and makes ridiculous choices (hiding kids, pulling kids out of school, moving kids to unknown locations, lying about the whereabouts, using fake addresses, trying to alter the appearance of the kids, medicating kids so they can't talk to other parent,etc.) then we know that this type of behavior is not only WRONG --but it amounts to parental alienation, purposely done, so that the kids believe they are helping the offending parent-- because it's right??!!

Manipulation of the legal system and using kids as pawns to achieve a parent's goals (as bad as those goals might be)-- will likely never amount to something that is right.  It is nearly impossible to do something wrong to achieve something that is right in Family law-- although attorney has seen many years of people using this tactic.

As trial attorney, attorney herein has seen many, many civil actions go sideways; many family law cases go sideways because some attorneys actually do things which are pointless (but attorney gets paid to do it)...or even useless?  In this case, the client's attorney was doing the right thing and just needed to make sure the judge would understand the pervasive nature of the offending party's actions---because we all know judges are very very busy, and ex parte orders must be concise and to the point.  It is true, there is an art to being persuasive in writing, and in speaking for sure.  Over time, an attorney can improve his or her skills, especially in the speaking area, since judge might read your documents, but not understand what you want.  However if you work on the written wording so that your words jump from the page, it will just be that much easier for judge to give you what you are asking for?

 We always can't have the winning case, but as defense counsel-- we should be able to circumvent most objections. If not, then we better make sure we have a plan which foresees the obstacles, and devise how to get around them. This requires a strategy.  It takes time.

Attorney herein always has a strategy.  Losing is never part of that plan. It helps if you really know your case and what you are doing.

Call attorney today if you are not winning your case!  530 359 8810.

Friday, September 1, 2017

Attorney Working on Dispute for client with Platinum Albums

It's true, former metal band Great White has now morphed into 2 separate bands-- Great White and Jack Russell's Great White.  After federal lawsuit ended in 2013 via settlement,  there is still controversy over the tragic fire from 2003, but both groups have been busy with touring... attorney may also assist in the planned upcoming new tell all involving original singer Jack Russell's life.
As would be expected, PTSD from the fire incident wreaked havoc for many, and those scars will likely remain for many of those affected.  For those that have suffered, we encourage understanding of what life brings, which is often something we do not care for at the time.

As in family law-- we often see the worst emotional rollercoaster situations which test our human endurance limits. Many attorneys dislike family law in its entirety due to the negativity associated with the emotional terrain; it is very true, the high conflict nature of family law is certainly not for everyone. But on the flip side, if parental alienation is held to a minimum, the children that reap the benefits of your work slowly but surely build up a positive subconscious attribute for the attorney.  If you don't understand this, you likely do not practice family law.

1987Once Bitten...
  • Release: June 17, 1987
  • Label: Capitol
  • Formats: CDLP
2391Platinum (RIAA)[5]
Gold (CRIA)[6]
1989...Twice Shy
  • Release: April 12, 1989
  • Label: Capitol
  • Formats: CDLP
9222× Platinum (RIAA)
2× Platinum (CRIA)
  • Release: February 26, 1991
  • Label: Capitol
  • Formats: CDLP
1827543Gold (RIAA)
Gold (CRIA)
Attorney has worked on diverse civil, family and criminal law cases, and on cases in the media (mostly animal law cases), a dispute in an entertainment law setting is different, but still
just involves looking at disputes. While entertainment law doesn't usually involve family law
issues, the fact is that disputes between agents, managers and parties or families is just more of
the same-- usually some fighting!